Add a Salvage Design Document

[CollectionOfBones128]

After seeing that #561 was rejected due to not being narrow enough in scope, failing to adress the flaws, and failing to provide adequate solutions, I have attempted to do just that.

Salvage is my primary job, so after seeing the discussions surrounding it and whether or not it even has a place in the game, I decided to attempt to provide my perspective.

I hope the format still complies with what WizDen desires, it seems there is uncertainty on the efficacy of the format in the template.

It is my sincere and honest opinion that the game is better for having Salvage in it, even if the form Salvage currently takes is not one even I would consider ideal. The thoughts present here are a compolation of the thoughts I have had after discussions with multiple salvage mains, as well as discussions had around my salvage contributions to downstreams.

[K-Dynamic]

This document has similar problems to the last salvage document. You need concrete details on what we expect salvagers to do, how we get there, and what a salvage game loop looks like. There's mentions of asteroids but nothing about if we want to keep expeditions, salvage magnets, and random debris (keep in mind that salvage doesn't have enough time to explore all three in a single round).

Salvagers should be engaging in a dolphin-like cycle of spacefaring > stationside > spacefaring > stationside, allowing them to Roleplay with the rest of the crew, mentally unwind from the previous PvE and prepare for the next PvE, and ensure their work is properly delivered to their destinations. This cycle should be hard-enforced by mechanics and not softly encouraged, and should not be avoidable by engaging with other elements of the Salvage gameplay. In turn, the downtime should not feel negative or opressive, and players should not find themselves wishing that they could avoid the downtime - the downtime itself should be a rewarding part of the gameplay and not an annoyance.

For example, I'm not sure what hard-enforcement mechanics you're proposing we add.

[CollectionOfBones128]

For example, I'm not sure what hard-enforcement mechanics you're proposing we add.

I mention in the current flaws section this paragraph:

Without a secondary, unavoidable timer that actively encourages anyone to spend time on station, Space will continue to be uneccesarily powerful. Without a means of tracking anyone in space (such as tracking elements on a mass scanner, or suit coordinates working offgrid), any job that can access space will always have an element of unhealthy gameplay.

The intention being that this secondary, unavoidable timer acts as a hard-enforced mechanic pushing anyone, including salvage, to spend time on station. This can take multiple forms, but my initial concept is Cosmic Background Radiation. If this isn't satisfactory, perhaps something more inline with ss14 unique lore could be added, like Bluespace Sickness or the like.

[CollectionOfBones128]

This document has similar problems to the last salvage document. You need concrete details on what we expect salvagers to do, how we get there, and what a salvage game loop looks like. There's mentions of asteroids but nothing about if we want to keep expeditions, salvage magnets, and random debris (keep in mind that salvage doesn't have enough time to explore all three in a single round).

I can expound further on this, and will do so once I wake up.
Personally, I think a wide variety of options is the best for round-to-round variation. I don't think Salvage should explore all their options in a single round and instead the breadth of what salvage has to offer can only be met by enjoying the job long-term.

[K-Dynamic]

I can expound further on this, and will do so once I wake up.
Personally, I think a wide variety of options is the best for round-to-round variation. I don't think Salvage should explore all their options in a single round and instead the breadth of what salvage has to offer can only be met by enjoying the job long-term.

For the sake of gameplay, I would condense all three into the salvage magnet. Having multiple options doesn't work in practice as it spreads both player and maintainer resources, which is the current problem we have. The magnet is much easier to work with since salvagers will work in a predictable area, which is important for interactions with the station and antagonists.

[CollectionOfBones128]

The magnet is much easier to work with since salvagers will work in a predictable area, which is important for interactions with the station and antagonists.

It is my wholehearted belief that aiming to corral any spacefaring job to a small ring around the station is trying to solve a symptomatic issue and not a root issue. I think it is in the better interest of the game as a whole to make it so putting ideas into deeper space is not harmful to interaction and roundflow. Mainly, as it stands even if you didn't have a department that went into space, people would still do it because of how it disconnects you from interaction and roundflow, which is not something we should be encouraging & solving that also allows for Salvage to healthily exist further out from the station.

Having multiple options doesn't work in practice as it spreads both player and maintainer resources, which is the current problem we have.

I understand the sentiment here. I'll outline a more narrow suggestion for roundflow in that case, even if it still allows for variety having a structure to the scope of that variety will allow for people to more easily see where the holes are, what still needs work, and better utilize resources towards improving the gameplay.

[CollectionOfBones128]

A narrow gameplay definition has been added. Please let me know if this is or isn't narrow enough, I am always happy to elaborate.

[Meara1179]

I do have a couple of things I want to bring up about this design document.

Salvagers should be reachable even when spacefaring. Antagonists with targets on Salvagers should not feel discouraged by their target being a Salvager and should not be forced to wait for a Salvager to be stationside to engage with their objectives.

I feel as if the static structures, both the ones just past the ATS, and the singular large one, risk contradicting this point. It's not exactly an easy task for antags, especially those that don't come with EVA or externals access as part of their job, to get out to areas past the ATS. I worry that antags will still be encouraged to just wait until salv comes back to deal with them, instead of investing significant resources to hunt them down that far outside that station.

Salvagers should be engaging in a dolphin-like cycle of spacefaring > stationside > spacefaring > stationside

This structure should inherently take multiple excursions to fully explore, and the desired rewards should not be achievable without multiple excursions.

You mentioned in a comment the idea of using cosmic background radiation to enforce a limit on salv spending time in space, and while I do think it's quite interesting, it's a tad vague in what it actually does. Like for example would this be something that Engis have to worry about when working out in space, or cargo techs when going to and from the ATS? I think it would be useful to have a more concrete idea on how to mechanically enforce salv spending time on the station, so that people can provide more directed feedback.

[CollectionOfBones128]

I feel as if the static structures, both the ones just past the ATS, and the singular large one, risk contradicting this point. It's not exactly an easy task for antags, especially those that don't come with EVA or externals access as part of their job, to get out to areas past the ATS. I worry that antags will still be encouraged to just wait until salv comes back to deal with them, instead of investing significant resources to hunt them down that far outside that station.

So, inside the narrow gameplay definition I mention

Salvagers going further afield should not be unhealthy to the roundflow, as mechanics should be put in place to keep them connected to the station, activities on the station, and threats from station-originating antagonists even when they are on the third method.

And inside Current Flaws > Weak Core Gameplay Elements I elaborate further on making space healthier and more connected to the station. The idea here being by making it healthier for the game to be in space in the first place, antagonists should have an easier time interacting with targets who are in space.

Salvagers should be engaging in a dolphin-like cycle of spacefaring > stationside > spacefaring > stationside

This structure should inherently take multiple excursions to fully explore, and the desired rewards should not be achievable without multiple excursions.

You mentioned in a comment the idea of using cosmic background radiation to enforce a limit on salv spending time in space, and while I do think it's quite interesting, it's a tad vague in what it actually does. Like for example would this be something that Engis have to worry about when working out in space, or cargo techs when going to and from the ATS? I think it would be useful to have a more concrete idea on how to mechanically enforce salv spending time on the station, so that people can provide more directed feedback.

Cosmic Background Radiation or a similar theme to me is a mechanic that functions like Hazardous Planets in the game No Mans Sky. By being in bare space a shield on your hardsuit is decreased, and this shield can only be replenished on station. Only Salvagers and Engineers should be expected to encounter this, the Cargo Shuttle and ATS should be shielded. It should only kick in when not touching the station grid. Once the shield is depleted, you take damage, ideally one that isn't easy to repair on the fly thus pushing you to return to station periodically.

[alexalexmax]

Who is implementing this?

[CollectionOfBones128]

Who is implementing this?

I believe since this is more based on the design space template, it doesn't need a specific implementer?

[PJB3005]

After yet another discussion on staff Discord I came to the conclusion Salvage is just never going to work again.

Foot down time. Salvage is dead.

[lilian-paddleston]

This is a very drastic measure. Should we expect a PR soon?

[saintlygold]

Removing Salvage puts a ton of game design issues into Cargo as a whole and strips away years of work from many people. There’s been subdepartment removals before like with virology and brigmed but nothing as big as “kill salvage”

As just a single example, Uranium, Bananium, Plasma, Artifact fragments, Carpotoxin are all resources that are going to be near impossible to get (some of them you can’t even buy) can we get any insight as to why the role’s being axed? It’s a favorite of many including myself and I would just want some closure

[SnappingOpossum]

Removing Salvage puts a ton of game design issues into Cargo as a whole and strips away years of work from many people. There’s been subdepartment removals before like with virology and brigmed but nothing as big as “kill salvage”

As just a single example, Uranium, Bananium, Plasma, Artifact fragments, Carpotoxin are all resources that are going to be near impossible to get (some of them you can’t even buy) can we get any insight as to why the role’s being axed? It’s a favorite of many including myself and I would just want some closure

Cargo definitely has issues but I doubt the removal of salv will effect them all that much.

Carpotoxin can be grown and sci can spawn carps somewhat often, artifacts can be crushed for fragments, plasma can always be bought. Bananium and uranium are the big ones to suffer, and I haven't often seen salv bring bananium anyway, uranium being the bigger concern since it's used for research recipes, but that can be addressed with time.

The role being axed has nothing to do with how much people like playing it, I myself enjoy it quite a bit, it's more so with the fundamental design problems it brings, and the issues with its current implementation, both in shallowness and poor code.

[K-Dynamic]

PJB has a blog about salvage's problems static.slugcat.systems/salvage/

As for all the resources that are unavailable, we can either adjust the recipes to exclude them or add a crate with random resources.

One big issue with salvage is that their job is too isolated from the station. Antagonists don't bother hunting salvage targets if they'll spend 90% of their time in space and die there anyway.

The other big issue is sunk-cost. A good amount of maintainer resources have already been poured into salvage's systems without much benefit to the gameplay loop, which primarily takes place on the station. There is an argument to be made of the opportunity cost of maintaining salvage at the expense of other systems.

[DDeegan]

PJB has a blog about salvage's problems static.slugcat.systems/salvage/
I don't really see anything in that blog post that comes anywhere close to warranting removal? It talks about problems with SS13's shaft mining, talks about an idea from 2019 about what salvage could have been and then goes strait to "so salvage clearly sucks" without really explaining why other than a short list of pretty small issues that isn't elaborated on. Hell, it spends more time on what's good about Salvage than the supposed problems. Unless "the way it developed doesn't match the idea from 7 years ago" is enough to axe a significant area of the game, and if that's the case there's a LOT that needs to go.

[CollectionOfBones128]

PJB has a blog about salvage's problems static.slugcat.systems/salvage/

Having read this, I do encourage PJB to perhaps give this document she closed another read. I wholeheartedly believe it aligns with the complaints and desires she laid out in this piece, and so there definitely is a pathway forward if wizden would so choose to take it.

[SpaceLizard24]

If I can throw in my two cents here...

I play on Cosmatic Drift, a HRP server with antags disabled. There, salvage operates perfectly fine, with a little bit of drama that's not disruptive, but entertaining.

While salvage is absolutely a job that attracts NRP power gamers, the job itself isn't broken. It's the players that the job attracts.

Salvage in Cosmatic Drift does work, plays around, and is entertaining. They benefit the crew and interact with the other players.

I firmly believe that salvage, mechanical wise, is just fine, if not a little underdeveloped. It's the players that are attracted to salvage.

So, I firmly believe salvage can work, it's just that the players can't work with salvage.

Off the top of my head, challenging experienced salvagers (while making new players still able to play) would help with salvagers getting bored and deciding to kill everyone or something.

Also, I firmly believe that cargo is probably much more mechanically broken than salvage, and removing salvage will bring the problems there.

Thanks for listening to my ted talk!

[ivomink]

Consider the fact that salvage is the sole reason why I, and so many other people, like playing this game so much.
When I first started playing salvage this was the most fun I've had in an SS14 job interaction EVER, especially with the whole exped system.

By removing salvage completely from upstream you're essentially stripping away all of the fun that I had initially experienced.

Thank you for killing a good feature because of "NRP powertrippers"